Colin Wood has moved on, and Ilam Baptist will never be the same. I’m going to miss getting pastoral expense claims with invoices like this one:
“Red/gold pirate vest, cream pirate shirt, black skullcap, red sash, earring, eye patch, long black boots, treasure chest, lge. cutlass”
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July 21st, 2006 at 1:17 am
Yeah, it’ll be weird going to a church that has a normal pastor
That is a pretty cool invoice, I must say
July 25th, 2006 at 6:41 am
is that what they spend the offering on these days? pity World Vision is short of sponsors this month, you know you look at some of the language they use in their ads and think it’s some big deal as if all these poor kids are gonna die horrifically if we don’t give them a dollar a day. love, Judas
July 25th, 2006 at 8:25 am
But Judas, i thought that world vision would just squander the money given to them because they are big evil corporation who really just dont care.
(yes, i know you deleted the post, but i remember what it said)
July 25th, 2006 at 9:08 am
yes, that’s why i support change through right-wing politics, not aid, and wish i’d donated the money i gave to World Vision and thought was such a noble thing to do because i was giving over 50% of my income to things like Muriel Newman’s nzcpd.com instead
July 25th, 2006 at 9:11 am
and to clear up your bearing of false witness, i said the third world country governments would squander the money, not World Vision
July 25th, 2006 at 9:38 am
My point stan – which you have once again ignored to push your right wing opinions despite the lack of relavence – is that you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
If you are going to claim that every small expenditure the church makes is a waste of money and should be sent to other ‘more worthy’ causes, you are going to quickly reduce things down to ‘christians/the church should not have any money’
July 25th, 2006 at 9:42 am
This brings to mind a story about a woman who pours a hugely expensive jar of perfume on Jesus’ feet, and one of the disciples (quite possibly Judas, even) kicks up a huge stink, because the money could have gone to the poor, and Jesus says “the poor will always be with us.”
Admittedly, the analogy falls down because I’m pretty sure Colin is not The Son of Man.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:50 am
that’s why i signed my first post Judas Matt. i don’t have anything against the Church having money Andrew, since it’s voluntarily donated. i just happened to see a World Vision ad on tv and read this post and thought i’d post since it’s also about money, and just thought about how World Vision begs “urgently” for a dollar a day ($40 a month), yet the coloured pamphlets/junk mail they send out probably cost a dollar per page to print, and that the Churches they go to probably spend a few dollars on pirate costumes too. to make it relevant though, i thought the money i put in the offering bowl at Ilam Baptist (not that i hardly ever go there but i used to back in first year) was going to overseas missions and stuff since they’re always talking about it, but then again i guess i only ever put in whatever coins i have in my pocket anyway and wouldn’t make a difference. they probably put all the coins from the offering bowl in the “to spend on props and mini prizes like chocolate bars” fund, and the big cheques in the “to spend on missions” fund. the whole thing with right-wing ideologies is to not let government control the people’s money (through taxes), but for the people to keep the money, because people are more responsible with their own budgets than a government being responsible for other people’s budgets, to let free trade and private enterprise to flourish in third world countries than have their governments try to solve the problems through military force and aid funded SOEs
July 25th, 2006 at 10:58 am
“If you are going to claim that ever small expendature the church makes is a waste of money and should be sent to other ‘more worthy’ causes”
July 25th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Stan, the whole thing about the Judas/Jesus story is that Judas was wrong.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:14 am
i know that, it was wrong because Judas was thinking about taking the money for himself. i don’t agree or disagree with Jesus because i simply don’t know if He truly died for our sins or not (like i don’t doubt He was crucified, i just doubt His claims that it would redeem us). but the argument itself is valid irrespective of Judas’ inner sinful thoughts
July 25th, 2006 at 11:25 am
although i guess yes i was playing Judas because i don’t think i would’ve spent that money on Muriel Newman if i knew about it because i only forced myself to give that much to a “Christian” organisation out of fear of God and the whole treasures in Heaven thing, if i hadn’t believed in God back then and i probably would’ve spent it on myself instead like buy myself a bass guitar or something despite genuinely believing the ACT party is a worthy cause
July 25th, 2006 at 11:28 am
How does it matter who he is talking to. thats a fairly indisputable statement.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
RRAAARGHGHRRRGHGH!
(general expression of frustration at the fact that I think you’re all right and all wrong and the world sucks - no content/opinion intended)
(also not intentionally a pirate noise)
Would be interested to hear, though, if anyone (such as perhaps Stan) could really imagine a way of reaching out to the young people in our kind of society without some degree of seemingly frivolous expenditure. I dunno, I’ve been trying to figure it out myself with the youth group I lead. I mean, sure it’s possible in theory, and I really like the idea, but it never seems to work.
Meh, I’m just being argumentative. There’s no answer. Or rather there are too many.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Wow! In less than 24 hours this has metamorphosed from a quick comment about missing a quirky and creative pastor to a full-blown argument about church finances! I never saw that coming.
I’d follow Nato’s example and tell everyone to stick to the topic - although I don’t think the discussion actually has much to do at all with the topic of the post, so anything goes I guess.
With regard to Ilam Baptist’s use of money - the majority of what we receive each month goes to administrative costs - office rent, hall hire and paying the pastor and administrator enough that they can eat and keep roofs over their heads, etc. A decent amount goes to supporting overseas missions. Not the majority of our income, but we’re not a dedicated aid organisation; distributing money to missionaries and aid workers is only a small part of what we do. I don’t see anything wrong with Colin’s hiring a pirate costume; the people do control their own money, Stan; Ilam members designate some of what they give to missions, and some to general use, and everyone has a say in how that money is used. I daresay that quite a few give money to aid/missions/development organisations outside of Ilam Baptist as well.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:41 am
sorry Katie i don’t know either, and i’m not too sure what you mean… how does it not work? what are you trying to achieve? pray for those kids in your group and just look after each other i guess is the best you can do, and that’s really admirable of you just don’t feel like who you are is a waste
for me personally though, i’ve always wanted to be a Christian musician ‘cos i think songs can really help teenagers think about things such as appreciating what’s important in life and caring about each other and not hating God for the wrong reasons, Sara Groves has really helped me with that (www.saragroves.com) - although i still have lots of bitterness and resentment towards Christians and automatically blame Jesus
this sounds simplistic and cliched, but just love your youth group kids aye, be friends with them and help them when they need you (i don’t have this experience personally but apparently this is really hard and most people say you can’t do that and have to tell them to go see counsellors and stuff and that they need to help themselves, but speaking as a person not helped by Christians when i needed it it grew my hatred towards them)… be real and even voice your own doubts with honesty, ask them why God’s so unfair and see what they think? i think if your intentions are genuine and good then people can see that
i’ve just found, you can sometimes get them when they’re young, and it’s easy to reach out to unhappy little kids who aren’t in the crowd. but cool kids are almost impossible to convert and love themselves and their sins too much, and have such little compassion for helping others. i don’t know what God thinks, i don’t actually know if God exists (at least in the way the Bible explains Him) or not and if He does whether He wants to save them
i don’t know, like i can’t stand preaching to students at uni ‘cos they’re so selfish but my College friends are so open about going to Church once you clear up their prejudices with your superior intellect (not because you’re superior, but because you’re older and have thought about things more)
sorry i didn’t even ask you what you think and whether you even wanna talk about it and if what i said was what you were asking?
oh whoops, i just re-read what you wrote and realised you were talking about spending money, my first thought was you were finding it hard to keep your youth group from being faithful to God. well, yeah i don’t see the big deal in the pastor buying a pirate suit, although i still think it’s a bit dumb, like one time i went to the Church and they were smashing plates to express Jesus’ reaction at the marketplace and i couldn’t help but think - man, was that really even necessary? considering when i was a kid and went to the Salvation Army i thought i was making a difference when i donated one to the Church and like if i was a kid at Ilam Baptist and you see plates being smashed like that you just think, well so poor people don’t really need plates, that when you see the basket in supermarkets saying “food for the City Mission” putting in baked beans is silly since Churches are buying chocolate bars with the offering money
but as Andrew said, there will always be poor people so it’s not a priority and serving the Church and keeping the high class kids and competing with what the materialistic world has to offer them with its computers and pornography is more important than feeding the homeless (although like you said KT, that it’s ideal we shouldn’t be using things like pirate gags and other frivilous expenditure to compete with Satan and that people should be coming to Church because they wanna go to get to know God instead of “Spreydon Baptist has an awesome cafe”)
July 26th, 2006 at 12:43 am
yeah, that’s cool Fraser. i wasn’t serious about attacking the Church i was just bored and felt like poking at World Vision ads. i think it’s cool how Ilam Baptist puts pieces of paper to hand around the congregation where people can write their views and stuff and have input
July 26th, 2006 at 12:56 am
Would be interested to hear, though, if anyone (such as perhaps Stan) could really imagine a way of reaching out to the young people in our kind of society without some degree of seemingly frivolous expenditure. I dunno, I’ve been trying to figure it out myself with the youth group I lead. I mean, sure it’s possible in theory, and I really like the idea, but it never seems to work.
so yeah it would work, but i think it’s creating spoilt Christians. but i can’t judge them and that’s just how i view them, they probably do much greater works than i do for the people around them, for example there’s lots of Navigators i consider hypocrites, but they’ve probably led more people to Christ and helped them find hope and peace in God than i have, and i’m a hypocrite too i’m just more expressive about it
July 29th, 2006 at 8:39 am
Stan; go find a dictionary. Look up two words:
Don’t misrepresent my argument.
August 2nd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Okay, I’m closing comments on this post. This is a pseudo-literary blog, not an arena for petty backbiting.